(368) Choreographer Hope Boykin, on her new work 'States Of Hope'
On today's episode of 'Conversations On Dance', we are joined by choreographer Hope Boykin. We catch up with Hope about her retirement and transition to full time choreographer, as well as her process and preparation for her new work 'States Of Hope' that will premiere at the Joyce Theater this October 17th and run through October 22nd. If you are in the New York area and would like to purchase tickets, visit joyce.org/performances.
Listen to our first episode with Hope from the 2019 Vail Dance Festival: https://www.conversationsondancepod.com/episodes-transcripts/hope-boykin-2019-vail-dance-festival.
THIS EPISODE'S SPONSOR:
The BFA Dance program at the Peabody Conservatory of the Johns Hopkins University prepares students to be at the forefront of dance innovation through performance, choreographic and critical historical and theoretical exploration. Studying dance at Johns Hopkins, one of the world’s premier research institutions, gives students the opportunity to make connections between dance, science, technology, and the humanities. Submit your application by December 1st. Learn more at Peabody.jhu.edu/dancebfa
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TRANSCRIPT
This transcript was generated automatically. It’s accuracy may vary.
Rebecca King Ferraro [00:01:01]:
I'm Rebecca King Ferraro.
Michael Sean Breeden [00:01:03]:
And I'm Michael Sean Breeden. And you're listening to conversations on Dance. On today's episode of Conversations on Dance, we are joined by choreographer Hope Boykin. We catch up with Hope about her retirement and transition to full time choreographer, as well as her process and preparation for her new work, States of Hope, that will premiere at the Joyce Theater this October 17 and run through October 22. If you're in the New York area and would like to purchase tickets, visit joyce.org slash performances. Hope, good morning and thank you so much for coming back on Conversations on Dance. It feels like yesterday we talked to you in veil, but I went to go back and look it up. As I was just telling you before we started recording, and it's been over four years.
Michael Sean Breeden [00:01:51]:
What month are we in? Yeah, it's been like four and a half years.
Hope Boykin [00:01:56]:
Good luck with what month it is.
Michael Sean Breeden [00:02:00]:
We've got a lot to catch up on, actually. And we were talking about we just ran into each other at USC. We were both working there and I thought your USC story is kind of an interesting way of maybe bringing us into the present because you were creating during COVID which would have been right after we first interviewed you on the podcast. And then you got to go back this year when things were a little bit more normal. So maybe you could tell us about those experiences at USC.
Hope Boykin [00:02:32]:
Sure. I love that place. I love the openness and the relaxed is the wrong word. But almost inviting and warmth that the school has. And not that every school needs to be this way. I think that each institution and sorry for I live in New York. Sorry for the sirens. Okay.
Hope Boykin [00:03:00]:
Yeah, it happens. But the warmth that I found there when I was first there was so overwhelming. And I was with a sophomore class who has since graduated, and they weren't able to perform the work. And then I got a call during their senior year that they wanted to put their work back together, that they were never able to perform live and so they did it three or four times in different situations, so it felt like I was still connected with them. I did teach on Zoom, so the class that I had on Zoom are now seniors, and I'm actually doing a senior solo for Jada Vaughn. And then I was there when we saw each other again working with the sophomores, and it feels like it's important for me to as educator is the first word in my know mission statement. Educator, creator, mover, motivator, educating and being in this creative space with those folk, those young folk, the ones who want a career similar to the ones that we chose, the life that we chose. They want to work, they want to push.
Hope Boykin [00:04:19]:
And I found that that transition was right, because I learned a lot about what to say and what not to say to this particular generation of dancers coming up. And excuse me, I've said this before, but their favorite word is my favorite word, and I'm trying to let them understand that that could be their favorite word is no. No should be paramount. This complete sentence, this completely transparent word, it doesn't have any room for vagueness. You say no, and they're like, what do you mean no? Well, I mean, no, that's not going to work. No, that's not good. No, let's fix it. I don't want to leave you out with no, but let's start there.
Hope Boykin [00:05:04]:
Let's start with how we can get to and seven or eight of the dancers were here in New York during their summer program, and I got an email saying, we'd love to take you to dinner. And that's when I knew that the no's had become yes, because the work we did, I still marvel at the work that they created in the space, but the fact that they still wanted to include me in their lives during their summer, during their time in New York was really a big deal for me. So I put on a medal that day. I felt so taken care of and loved, and they told me where we were meeting. I had to do no know. So it was just wonderful. It was really wonderful. But anyway, yes, my USC transition.
Hope Boykin [00:05:56]:
Yeah.
Rebecca King Ferraro [00:05:57]:
You mentioned Motivator as part of your mission statement, and I remember that was part of what we spoke with you about last time, and we got so much great feedback from your episode last time. We'll put a link in the episode description so people can find can go back and listen if they want. But I remember that one of the things I think Michael and I were talking about this morning, that at the end of the interview offline, you told us that you were about to retire, because I think you hadn't told anyone yet. And then we started talking about retirement, and we had, like, an emotional moment and all of that. So since that has happened since then, how did that all pan out for you? And how has that transition been after your incredible 20 year career?
Hope Boykin [00:06:39]:
So I don't know if you remember, but I told you that I love tech, I love cameras. I loved all the things, and so I had all of those things with me. I think even when I was at Vale, I had a ronin. So it was me learning how to maneuver this incredible device, and I was ready for the pandemic. Believe it or not, I was much like you were, because we already had mics, we already had lights. We knew how to have a conversation with people who weren't right in front of us. And that, I think, was really helpful to me in the transition. I don't think I really felt the full retirement until people started going back to work, because we were all done or paused at the same moment.
Hope Boykin [00:07:28]:
And when I felt it, I felt it just as a little bit of a longing, but not so much loneliness. I was like, oh, but I knew that I'd made the right decision. Physically, I'd made the right decision. I've been suffering with some health things that I feel like my body just waited until you said, you sure, girl? You sure you're done? Because we're about to show you what we've been holding back. And it just sort of broke. My body broke down, and I'm still coming back from those things. And I'm grateful for it because everything is a lesson. But it was not as difficult as I would.
Hope Boykin [00:08:05]:
I mean, there were days that we all suffered when we were during the pandemic and everything, but my transition itself wasn't as difficult. And by the time Ailey had their opening night in person, I don't know if that was 21, 2021, I'm not exactly, or 22, I'm not sure. But that opening night, I was just clapping for those younger folk who were on the stage. I knew that it was exactly the right decision. I had seen this interview that Mr. Ailey had given. I don't know, I forgot who was interviewing him. But they asked him why he stopped.
Hope Boykin [00:08:43]:
And I'm not comparing myself to him, but what he said was that he stopped because he needed to make room for the next person. And oftentimes I feel like we can hold on because we don't want to be at a loss. And so my decision I made a public statement eventually, and then going through the pandemic and having to I was still dancing in my living room, but that last rock of my soul in my living room, dropping in my knee, I was like, oh, I'm done with this. I have been filled with it. It has been glorious. But gosh, I don't want to do that thing to my body that's already aching. You know what I mean? I don't want to pretend that it doesn't hurt. That's really what it is.
Hope Boykin [00:09:26]:
I can't just keep putting that smile on. When there's a shock, is it going to sustain itself? Is the joint we know when it comes to our bodies, they are our instruments. This is how we live, play the game, whatever we want to call it. And when it stops working, we have to think about what that means. When it slows itself down, I would do it again exactly the same way. I'd probably push myself to the end or to the limit. But maybe I would try to take care of these joints and bones and things a little bit differently than I did. But the retirement was right on time.
Hope Boykin [00:10:11]:
Same. I don't regret it.
Michael Sean Breeden [00:10:20]:
Did you find that? When did you start to hurt? I'm just thinking about this because it was pretty late for me, and that was part of the problem. So I think I didn't know how to take care of myself. So if you're like one of those people that's like a workhorse and you're relied upon and you're not injured ever, you can take it as a badge of honor and be like, I don't even go to physical. Great.
Hope Boykin [00:10:41]:
So when that was not me.
Rebecca King Ferraro [00:10:43]:
Yeah. Michael, you're alone in that one on Zoom Call.
Hope Boykin [00:10:47]:
I was always in physical. You know, I had my first major injury before I even danced professionally because I was a gymnast. And I would fall and run into things and bump into things and the you would like I remember losing some temporary teeth and then just literally gross sucking it up and moving back on and going back and doing the vault again. I remember that. That's just what it seemed like. And my last performance in high school, I had a bad sprain. And before I knew anything about athletic tape, the doctor taped my ankle and I went and got some brown duct tape, the shiny electrical tape. This is in the taped my ankle.
Hope Boykin [00:11:36]:
So when I watched that video, you see a shiny ankle. Who knew? Who thought to go put makeup on it? Like, first of all, there were only two brands that sold makeup for dark skinned people anyway. Nobody thought that that was a thing, right? And so I feel like I was always prone to something and I always pushed in spite of it. And I think that's the lesson I teach now, even in rehearsal, I say, oh, I want you to do this. Oh, you know how to do it now. We don't have to keep doing it. I don't need you to keep showing me. Because repetition causes injury, good repetition and poor repetition.
Hope Boykin [00:12:16]:
And so no matter what it is, just ease off. Do we know it? Of course we're going to have to rehearse, especially if we're with people or partners. But at some point, we should be able to dial it down so that we can preserve because once the cartilage is gone, it's gone. Once the ligament is stretched. It's stretched, it doesn't come back. That's why I tell these young folk to stop sickling their foot. I'm like stop sickling that foot. Because when you are sickling in these new shapes and beautiful lines, you're stretching ligaments and tendons and the you put on that cute shoe and you roll over that ankle and you think it's the shoe, but it was actually the sickle sorry, I mean corny, but you know what I mean.
Hope Boykin [00:13:01]:
We don't realize what we do that affects us ultimately. That's what I'm saying, that we can control the outcome. And I did not pushed. I pushed because I didn't want to be left. I pushed because I wanted to dance. But the minute you step out or say you can't do something, they replace you. And how good does that feel?
Rebecca King Ferraro [00:13:25]:
Terrible.
Hope Boykin [00:13:26]:
Not terrible. Yeah.
Rebecca King Ferraro [00:13:28]:
That's why we live in these bodies like this now. That it is because it is that fear. And I think that's so wonderful that you're telling the dancers that you're working with that they can without fear of retribution, be like, okay, I'm done now. I figured that out, I got it. I'll rehearse when I need to, but I'm done. I think that's such a valuable lesson and a way to change it for the next generation.
Hope Boykin [00:13:52]:
Yeah. Because it actually empowers them to do it when they need to do it. And then what is marking, really? Marking is just turning the volume down. It's not turning it off. And so maybe you don't need to jump all the time, but you still have to cover the same amount of space because people are working with you. Maybe you don't have to do that. What's that? It's my favorite press in spring waters.
Michael Sean Breeden [00:14:21]:
Oh, yeah.
Hope Boykin [00:14:22]:
You know what I mean? Yes, exactly. Thank you, torchless. There it is, the term. So maybe you don't have to do that every single or ten times in one rehearsal if you know how to do it. But we still have to do it. And I think it's teaching it's the knowing when that we need to really kind of regulate.
Michael Sean Breeden [00:14:42]:
Yeah, for sure. So just one more note on retirement, I guess. So had you planned to have a blowout? How exactly did it go down for you? Did COVID cut off a potential big celebratory moment for you? And if so, how did that, I guess, impact you emotionally or moving into the next phase?
Hope Boykin [00:15:10]:
That's really a great question. The last city center that I did, two wonderful people, supporters of Ailey and former board member, actually threw a reception for me. And I was able to invite people. My family came, my mom, my aunt came and it was really a wonderful time. I didn't know how emotional I was going to get. I don't think I realized the whole company would come after the performance. It was really a special time. So that felt like a definitive end because that was the end of City Center, and I had done 20 of them right then I did request to dance some things I had not performed, and Matthew Rushing, who was then just become our associate artistic director, and Robert Battle agreed that I could do these works.
Hope Boykin [00:16:03]:
And it was going to happen on my final performance, which was going to be Mother's Day at New Jersey Pack. And so we didn't make it to May, we only made it to March. And so I constantly was a part of the transition with Alien, the social media and how we all had to find our way in that. So I didn't really get the end that I thought. But this past May, I was invited to Choreograph for the Ailey Spirit Gala, and that was an organizational event. So there were two students from the junior division I'm sorry, an eight year old and a nine year old. There were four students from Ailey camp, so they were like between twelve and 1422 professional division students ranging from the Ailey certificate program, the scholarship and the BFA, six Ailey, two dancers and six First Company members. Wow.
Hope Boykin [00:16:58]:
So when we did the piece and Executive Director Bennett Rink was like, hope you should take a bow. When I went to take a bow for that, that felt like the bow.
Michael Sean Breeden [00:17:09]:
Yeah.
Hope Boykin [00:17:10]:
And what the best part of it was? Now I have a little sprinkle on that seven year old or the eight year old and a nine year old, and a sprinkle on the junior division and a sprinkle on Ailey camp. So you live so that you can continue to live, and you work so that you can work through people and you show the thing that you love so you can teach people how to love it. And I feel like that was such an opportunity for me. So I'm so grateful I was able to do that because I didn't know I needed it. But at the end of it, I was like, oh, this sort of feels like the thank you. Even though it was me saying thank you for allowing me to have this time and not be so separate from an organization. You retire, it doesn't mean you cut. You just decide you don't want to do a deep plier anymore in the front of a wedge in a brown dress.
Hope Boykin [00:18:07]:
I just was like, yeah, no, I don't want to, but I want to do that thing.
Rebecca King Ferraro [00:18:11]:
Yeah. I imagine that must be so meaningful for you to still feel a part of the organization that you've loved for so long and just in a different way.
Hope Boykin [00:18:20]:
Exactly. You love it. And not only do I love it, I want to share what was so wonderful with so many people.
Michael Sean Breeden [00:18:29]:
That's beautiful. Well, you've certainly kept busy since in this transition. I'm sure there's a lot we could talk about from the past 14 years, but I think we want to probably just get right to the thing we're here to talk about and promote, which is your upcoming week at the Joyce. I want to hear well, I guess first was the concept for the performance, did that come first or was the offer to have this week at the Joyce? What then inspired you to kind of figure out what was going to be presented?
Hope Boykin [00:19:01]:
So what's funny is I met 92nd Street Y right now in their newly renovated space to rehearse some for this week, for the Week of the Joys. And it was because Taryn Kashock Russell invited me to do a performance here when she was putting Dance back on the 92nd Street Y main stage that had producer Ross LeClaire see the show and then say, I'd like to talk about how we can support your work at the I'm. The fact that I'm sitting here is really great, but he said, let's have some lunches. And so he shared with me what producers should share. Hey, what is it you're thinking about? What would you do? I'll be honest with you and I'll tell you if I think this might work. And then he said something that was really key to me. He said, Evenings with the through line tend to work well. That's it.
Hope Boykin [00:20:01]:
He didn't say better or worse. He just said, they work well. And then I said, Well, I have a dream, actually, that I would like to put movement and words together where it's not just me speaking, because the concert he saw was fully voiceovered, but it was my writing, but you heard me and it was music and whatever, but it was a mix. And then the second performance I did that I really just tried to dive into where I was using spoken word was me speaking it live. And the dancers were dancing, so I could see when it was at Chelsea Factory, so when I watched them, I could see them moving. And then, of course, at Vale, I danced with Lauren Lovett because David was just thinking, and and so we're moving together in this space. But again, it was still only me. And I said to Ross, I was like, what if everyone is Miked and there's a full script? And he was like, oh, that sounds interesting.
Hope Boykin [00:21:01]:
And so the log line for States of Hope is in a fully scripted, evening length new dance theater work. And I've said this before, new is not meaning it's never been done. It's new for me, right? But I feel like it's important for me to remind people that it's new for me. And I'm allowed to call it a new know? Like, if Nike puts out a new shoe, they say new shoe. So why can't I say new dance theater work? And it's very interesting. I was prompted because I do work in theater. I work in theater and musical theater, and I'm a movement director and a choreographer, and I've got a musical theater agent, so I know what that life is. But knowing that I wanted to write something where I challenged the moving artist to speak was really, who do I ask? Who do I invite? And I was prompted to invite actors first.
Hope Boykin [00:22:03]:
And I was like, yeah. No, I will invite actors first because dancers act when we don't want to. We do when we're hungry, we do when we hurt, we do while we're enduring all the things, we still do it to the best of our ability. So I would like to work with this group of people and with an unbelievable cast, I am just blown away by what they can do because we feel things so deeply as movers. So imagine feeling deeply and then having to express that deep feeling out of your mouth while you're moving. Not speaking. Stop. Dance.
Hope Boykin [00:22:43]:
Stop speaking. Stop. Dance. Stop. No speak. Dance, move. And it's really kind of exciting to watch it come to life.
Michael Sean Breeden [00:22:54]:
Right?
Rebecca King Ferraro [00:22:54]:
So is it mostly actors?
Hope Boykin [00:22:56]:
We're all actors. But it's a full dance first cast, right? Everyone has led with the moving art first.
Michael Sean Breeden [00:23:07]:
I would like to rewind for a second and just know a little bit more because obviously this is something even though this is a scale you haven't done it on before, and involving the entire cast is not something you've done before. Obviously, you're inspired by the marriage of spoken word and dance. What do you find inspiring about that? And when did you first start to kind of explore that avenue?
Hope Boykin [00:23:30]:
Well, I love to say I might have said it with you all before, that I believe movement is abstract and there is no movement for the word love, but it's how we invite an arm to reach. It's how Juliet runs to how, you know, the woman and fix Me Jesus, runs to this angel character like there's a loving nest in the quality and in the way that we do, the way that we move. When we're in a movie and we hear music that's soft and loving, all of a sudden we know something sweet might happen or we hear the reverse. Or I don't know if you've noticed, but in movies, when silence completely drops out, when the soundtrack drops out and you are just forced to listen to the actor speak, you have to zoom in. And so why not take this abstractness and make it fully transparent? Not that I'm trying to define an Arabesque saying. An Arabesque means the and a passe means to. You know what I mean? That's not what I mean. I just think that we can use this movement to then develop what is so clear in how we feel and how we think.
Hope Boykin [00:24:45]:
I mean, I could reach out to you and shake your hand and say, I hope you have a good day. That's different from standing back and not touching you and nodding my head, saying, I hope you have a good day. And it's also very different from saying, I hope you have a good day, and no emotion. But the minute I touch you, the minute I show this shaking hand action, you really start to feel that my words mean something more than just me standing back. So if I invite movement into the text, and sometimes I don't know what should come first. Should I dive into the movement first or into the words, into the cadence, or should I just allow them to find themselves? I think that that has been the challenge, but it's also been really important for me to do that and something's also super important about actors. A good friend of mine said to me, hope you know that actors ask Why? And dancers say, okay. And I think that that is isn't that funny? It's so true.
Hope Boykin [00:25:51]:
But I think that dancers should ask why sometimes, but not why do you want me to come out of this wing? Or Why? Three pure wet? But tell me what it is you want me to understand about your feeling, about the work. What can I dive into with my character? How do you want even with abstract works, I think that knowing what the director or the choreographer has experienced helps us experience something similar to then take it to a new level instead of just being a canvas because you really want in the front of the room, we want to see the dancer who gives us something. Well, why don't we help them give us something?
Rebecca King Ferraro [00:26:36]:
That's funny. I'm thinking even just like working with choreographers sometimes, you might see, like, you're working in the room with them, you're executing the steps, and then you might see, like, an interview or something, and they're like, I was inspired by this. And you're like, oh, that's cool. I see that, but it wasn't necessarily discussed. That's really interesting. Yeah. We're just like, okay.
Hope Boykin [00:26:55]:
And the safety that we give to the artists, the security, the ownership we give to the artists who are working with us then grows by leaps and bounds because now they want to help develop and build the work in the same way. So just trying to make the words more visible. Just like when we see music through the movement, dancers I'm sorry, choreographers who are super musical, right? You can just see it moving. You can see. I think Alvin Ailey is one of those tally beatty, ulysses dove. Oh, my know, like this this climactic sense of how fast should it turn? How slow should this be pulled out? And then the music is going, yeah. And the arabesque goes, yeah. Like, those things make sense.
Hope Boykin [00:27:49]:
So why can't that happen with I love you in the same push, in the same know? I love to talk about my favorite I have two favorite types of runs in dance. One is from a good friend of mine, Asha Thomas, who just had the most incredible run. Asha went to she. She lives in France now. Never hear me talk about her, but like I say, oh, we have to Asha run. Right know. And then it's the, you know, just the run from the balcony. You're to me.
Hope Boykin [00:28:22]:
Right. But the mean something. So if you put words behind these actions, I just have to get to you because you are so important to me. I love you so much. And that's the cadence of the run. So imagine if she said that how that would feel, how you would feel because you heard it.
Michael Sean Breeden [00:28:41]:
Okay, that's great.
Rebecca King Ferraro [00:28:44]:
I love it.
Michael Sean Breeden [00:28:45]:
But now I'm curious about how you were able to deliver this information and instill it in your cast and what the process was. Like, I'm sure you pulled together a group of people that were very open and kind of have this, like, an experimental, creative heart or mind. So, yeah, I'd just love to hear a little bit more about that.
Hope Boykin [00:29:07]:
So, yes, talking to the artist at first, saying, I have a script. I want to make a dance theater work. Would you be interested in unzipping yourself and doing this? So you got the yes, I would love to, but I'm afraid sure. Okay. I trust you. I'm not sure, but I trust you know what I mean? Like, you got those thoughts. And then the hardest thing for me to do was to share the script, because as soon as I shared it, it was out there. This is your writing, correct? My writing? Yes.
Hope Boykin [00:29:48]:
There's spoken word in it, so I do the spoken word, and then there's seven characters the determined, the cynical, the angry, the worried, the conformist, the convinced and daughter of Job. And those seven characters are the seven states of hope. And then I'm the narrator, and as I narrate, I narrate in spoken word cadence, but they speak in dialogue to each other. What do you know? What do you mean? What do you mean? Why are you asking me that again? Like, they literally are having a conversation, but the conversation is also in my rhythm cadence and then my rhythmic cadence. And then when I give movement to go with that dialogue, they'll tell me it might be easier if I did this. Or we have exercises. And I say, no, you need to lead with the actual word before you do the movement, because we want to make sure the word comes out first, and then it can resonate I love you, movement instead of I movement. Love you.
Hope Boykin [00:30:53]:
Because then we're missing the beat. So it's a lot of tedious work for me, I'm sure, for other people who have done this before, but I'm diving into something I think I know because this is what I want. But getting them to unpack themselves, some are much more comfortable than others. Some have found that they love this, but they never thought that. They would like it. And some are right at home because it is what they do. They've danced and they've had concert careers, and now they're either on Broadway or working to do movies and acting and things like that separate from that. So that's why I said I have dance first folk, but I also have people who are wrapped in the acting world and studying it.
Rebecca King Ferraro [00:31:44]:
Is there music involved with this as yes, yes.
Hope Boykin [00:31:47]:
So the Incredible cast, which I'll tell you their names, I think it's so important. And then Ali Jackson has composed the score. And it was also hard for us because it's hard to work and tell someone exactly what you want and you haven't made it. I think it would have been much easier for him to score something that was complete, but he had to just score from ideas and conversations and the script. And then I laid it down. So maybe what he intended for the worried character, I'm using it for the angry character. So he's not going to change it because it's been named, whatever. But now he'll see what my flow is and then the next time we work, maybe there will be something made and he can score it after the fact.
Hope Boykin [00:32:39]:
But the way we work as creators, we've been working, I call him, he's like a reoccurring support for me. And then I have lighting and set design by Al Crawford, who was another person. I try not to go anywhere know, both Ali and Al have worked with me for nothing. So by the time there's a real commission and they can get paid, I try to be loyal to my folk. And then the incredible cast is Jessica Pinkett. Fauna tes Figgorgis, Bahia. Hiba, said Terry. Ayanna Wright, martina Viadana, Lauren Rothert and Davon Farmer.
Hope Boykin [00:33:21]:
And we have two covers. Amina Vargas and Nina Gums. And then a guest artist that we're not releasing the name yet who will.
Michael Sean Breeden [00:33:34]:
Appear in a couple of performances for the casting process. Because you have these characters that are so specific. Did you have to cast in that way where you're like, okay, I like this dancer, but I don't see them fitting any of these molds. Or were you strictly assembling a group of people that you believed in first and then you figured things out character wise later?
Hope Boykin [00:33:57]:
Some of them, I knew exactly what they could be. This one dancer in particular who just wanted to hang out in rehearsal, she just wanted to be a part of seeing how I made work. I met her through the Ailey spirit gal. I'd never laid eyes on her before that time. So she would just come to rehearsal, take warm up with us. She'd say, I can run and do errands for you if you want. This is Lauren Rother. And I was like, okay, that's great.
Hope Boykin [00:34:24]:
And she's just had a nice spirit. So I just said, sure. As I'm an educator, when someone says they want to do something and they actually follow through, then you allow them to follow through. And one day I needed to read. Some people weren't there. So I was reading three parts, and I was like, that's too many parts. Can you read this part? And she's like, oh, yes, I was hoping you'd ask me. That's the part I'd like to read.
Hope Boykin [00:34:49]:
And then she became the role, like and she defined the role. She's playing the conformist. And I didn't realize the conformist really needed to be the youngest person in the cast. The person who wants to be liked, the person who doesn't want to be blamed, the person who wants to always do the right thing. And to me, she's brilliant. I'm thrilled with it. So this is a vast experience of people who are in it, who've done it, and then people who've never done it. But then here we are blending together, and there are people that I've worked with before, everyone I'd worked with at some point.
Hope Boykin [00:35:29]:
No one is I don't really audition, even if I have. I'm a project based choreographer, so I don't audition. I just feel out your spirit. I feel like I'd rather be in the room with kindness than be in the room with someone who can just do everything and it's just not nice. So I'd rather have a sweet room. The of course it's going to be great because the room is great, right?
Rebecca King Ferraro [00:35:58]:
When you're talking about having spoken word and dialogue such an important part of this evening, it's kind of making me think that some people who might go to see the ballet might sometimes feel a little intimidated, like, well, I don't know really what's going on, or do I have to understand something? Do I have to feel something? How do you feel that maybe this might be a little more accessible to an audience member who's newer with dance or theater, maybe at all?
Hope Boykin [00:36:26]:
I always worry this is also a hope sound bite. We want to be liked. We just don't want to want to be liked. We want to be cast. We just don't want it. We don't want to want it. I want people to see something in this and know that they may not like it. I know that they may not like it.
Hope Boykin [00:36:52]:
I even said it once. I did something at 92nd. Sorry, it works in process. And I said, I know people will say I had to choose whether to watch or listen. I said, I know people will say that, and I can't help that. I want you to do both things. And someone came up to me and said, you're right. I had to choose whether I watched or listened.
Hope Boykin [00:37:15]:
And I said, Well, I hope you liked one or the other. Like, I had to just let it go. Because if you're making something that's true to you and what you want to say, and there are lots of ballets that I can't wait to make that have no text in it at all. But at this moment right now, I want there to be something in it that tells you the story of my fear, my doubts, my feeling of lack and understanding that I want to be better for myself. I want to look in the mirror and be better for me. And the only way for me to really tell you how I really feel is to allow the words to tell you how I really feel. I'm leaving very little for you to interpret.
Michael Sean Breeden [00:38:02]:
Right.
Hope Boykin [00:38:02]:
And that's really tough. You know what I mean? I find it's much easier for me to watch theater now than it is for me to watch dance because there's so much about that I don't know. So I want to keep learning about it. But when I watch dance, I start to question, oh, maybe I should move like that, or maybe I should have given them something like that. And so I pull away so true. So that I can still be honest to this story and idea that I want to share.
Michael Sean Breeden [00:38:30]:
Yeah, I love know you're making me think of there was a piece this summer in Vale that the audience clearly had like a little bit of trouble with. And Damien came out and he know Leonard Bernstein used to know not everything is meant to just make you happy. That I mean, this is I'm really paraphrasing, but he said something like, some works are just meant to challenge you. You don't have to like everything basically it's art. It's not just easily digestible, whatever like junk food, television or something that is you're just there to just sit and be like, oh, this is easy. Like dopamine sometimes you are enriched and made better by things that challenge you. Or like you go revisit that piece because you're like I don't know. It bothered me, but I can't stop thinking about it now.
Michael Sean Breeden [00:39:26]:
I have to go back in and see what it was. And you can learn new things about yourself as a viewer.
Hope Boykin [00:39:33]:
And I think that that is so important because how many times do we watch something even on Netflix more than once and see what we missed know? Just small nuances or word choice or how someone looked before they said something like, those things can unpack and maybe you won't get it the first time. And that's also okay. That doesn't mean I have to dummy something down. And I don't mean that that's what a dance audience needs. But I shouldn't have to turn my volume down low just so that I can hope you like it. I have to just be honest and then hope you like it and be okay if you don't. And that's a challenge for me being okay if it's not received well. Because as creators, we want success in something you've been doing.
Hope Boykin [00:40:26]:
Conversations on dance for a long time. It's a staple word now, but at first I'm sure you questioned whether this was the right thing or you still do. You know what I mean? But it's our right and our duty to keep going because what you do makes room for other people to do it.
Rebecca King Ferraro [00:40:46]:
Yeah, I wonder as I'm hearing you talk about this, because it seems like maybe this isn't true, but it seems like you're very confident in the choices that you're making and what you want to put out there. And I wonder if that's something that's come with time or is it totally fake and you don't really feel very confident. I'm just curious because now that you've been for a little while, I love.
Hope Boykin [00:41:09]:
That you asked me that the character, the determined, was I was going back and forth whether I was going to call her the performer or the determined. And then I realized the performer can be determined. Once again, I'm looking here, sitting at 92nd street, why I took my first memoir writing class, which is why I also had the resources to write a script because I had written it in memoir form. And thinking about this character, I wrote the difference between and one of our assignments. I wrote the difference between a performer and entertainer and an artist. And I said, oh, okay. So all of these people have drives. All of these people have a want.
Hope Boykin [00:41:59]:
All of these people can see their end, and all of these people are determined to get it, but the actual performer smiles even when they don't feel like it. And so I said, well, let me portray this determined person. And she became the determined, and the determined line is the hope. I want people to see and believe. She is tired, but I'm going to smile. She is not well in her body physically, but I don't want you to worry about that. She struggles with wanting to be accepted and loneliness, but I have to make sure you feel loved. You see what I mean? So there's this push of truth that is faking it or showing the world what you want them to understand, know, and believe about you.
Hope Boykin [00:43:01]:
I really want that that part is not a lie. Whether I am that every day is the question.
Michael Sean Breeden [00:43:12]:
Well, it sounds like such a beautiful mix of all these personal complexities that I think are just so relatable, and I'm sure audiences are going to love it. If you're in the New York area, the shows are October 17 through October 22, and you can buy tickets on I think it's joyce.org. That's the Joyce's website, right? Okay, everybody, come on in. Yeah. Thank you so much for joining us, Hope. And we're not going to wait another four years to talk to you again.
Hope Boykin [00:43:42]:
No, please. Even if it's over coffee.
Rebecca King Ferraro [00:43:46]:
Yeah, that sounds lovely.
Hope Boykin [00:43:48]:
Thank you so much.
Rebecca King Ferraro [00:43:49]:
Thank you. Hope conversations on Dance is part of the Acas creator network. For more information, visit conversations on dancepodpod.com.