(370) Interview with Martha Graham
On today's episode of 'Conversations On Dance', we are joined by Michael Small, former reporter for People Magazine and the host of the podcast 'I Couldn't Throw It Out'. Michael tells us about a fascinating experience he had interviewing Martha Graham at age 95, an interview that Michael luckily held onto on cassette tape for nearly three decades because he, naturally, couldn't throw it out.
We listen to the interview here, but for a deep dive on Michael's other interview subjects, including an upcoming with Tupac Shakur, check out his podcast on Apple Podcasts or at throwitoutpodcast.com.
Listen to the original episode of the Throw It Out Podcast here. The transcript of Martha's interview is available here.
The interview with Martha starts around 33:00.
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THIS EPISODE'S SPONSOR:
The Bard College Dance Program, located 90 miles north of New York City in the Hudson Valley and housed in the Frank Gehry designed Fisher Center, sees the pursuit of artistry and intellect as a single endeavor and the study of the body as a cognitive act, demanding both physical practice and exploration of the broader academic contexts in which the art form exists. Through intensive technique and composition courses, onstage performance, and production experience, dance students are prepared to understand and practice the art of choreography and performance. Since 2009, the Bard Dance Program has hosted an in-residence dance company or performing arts organization bringing professional technique and composition to the academic program in the form of teaching, educational licensing projects, master classes, full-Company production residencies, and public performances. Past partnerships have included Bill T Jones Dance Company, Trisha Brown Dance Company, American DanceFestival, and Gibney Dance. For more information please contact Program Director, Tara Lorenzen tlorenzen@bard.edu.
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Martha Graham Dance Company rehearsal of "American Document" with Martha Graham and Mikhail Baryshnikov, choreography by Martha Graham. Photo by Martha Swope via NYPL Jerome Robbins Dance Division.
MARTHA GRAHAM INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT
Martha Graham Interview for People Magazine
September 1989
Interview by Michael Small
[Interview begins]
Michael Small:
As much as I can, I'd rather have you talking instead of me talking. That way you don't have to worry as much about me just, you know, saying what I...
Martha Graham:
Oh yes you do!
Michael Small:
I know, well, maybe you do have to worry. But in any case, I've read articles and they say that you rank with Picasso and Stravinsky as one of the three premier minds of the 20th century. When you read and hear things like that about yourself, do you start to believe it yourself?
Martha Graham:
No, I never believed it. They were they themselves. With all of their wonder, their imagination. I could look at it and envy it, perhaps. But I never did to the point where I sought them, and did not seek myself. I didn't want to appear to be, having brought myself up to be, oh, wonderful and perfect and beautiful and this goddess and so on. I don't believe in that. And I don't, I don't court that. If I can avoid it.
Michael Small:
Do you consider yourself the dancer or choreographer or both?
Martha Graham:
I originally knew myself as a dancer. I didn't understand the word choreography at all. And I was concerned with dancing and with the beauty of dancing and the wonder it can reveal more than anything in the world.
Michael Small:
I read that in past years you were actually quite tough sometimes with the dancers. And I'm wondering, are you still tough?
Martha Graham:
Yes. I don't believe in mediocrity.
Michael Small:
I'm just wondering, how come so many people turn 50 and give up on life, and you've kept going? What was different for you? How did you keep going?
Martha Graham:
I kept going because I wanted to. And because that was the fullness of life for me and I did it for no reason of being a woman's libber or this or that. And I was vain. I am vain. I continue to be vain and to fix my hair as I think it should be and makeup and that's my privilege.
Michael Small:
One thing I read is that you're 5'2" approximately...
Martha Graham:
I'm five three or four. I'm not sure.
Michael Small:
Was your height ever something you thought about? Do you think it ever held you back as a dancer? Or do you think it actually had something to do with making you a success?
Martha Graham:
Well, in certain ways, I think it made me where I am today. I accepted my body as it was, whether it was tall or little. And I dressed myself and still do in consideration of that point. My clothes, the pantsuit I'm wearing now was made by Halston. All of my street clothes are made by Halston. I have all of my evening clothes, which are terrific, made by Halston.
Michael Small:
In the past, you used to tell people when you were 40. You used to say you were younger than you were and now you're very honest about your age. Why did you change that?
Martha Graham:
The public changed it for me.
Michael Small:
Or else you'd still be doing it.
Martha Graham:
They knew that I was not quite as young as I thought I was.
Michael Small:
I know that Gregory Peck's daughter is reading the text for American Document.
Martha Graham:
Yes, she is.
Michael Small:
Do you remember anything about working with her father? Do you remember anything about how he was?
Martha Graham:
I do. I remember him from the time he was 19 years old.
Michael Small:
What was he like?
Martha Graham:
A gangly, wonderful, eager boy.
[Interview pause.]
Michael Small:
I want to pause here for a moment because Martha is about to tell me about her friendship with Helen Keller. But it's difficult to hear what she's saying. So Sally, I got you the transcript. Could you read this little bit first and then we'll listen to Martha saying the same thing?
Sally Libby:
Yes. (reading) "I remember very much Helen Keller and the wonder of her life. She would come to the studio because she felt she could feel the dance. She didn't feel the dance. She felt the vibration in her feet. One time she said to me, 'Martha, I don't understand what jumping is.' So I put Merce Cunningham at the bar and he jumped and she laughed and said, 'Oh, how wonderful. How like the mind.' I'd go to a concert with her, an opera. and she'd put her hand on the seat in front of her so she could feel the vibration. She didn't hear the sound or any part of it. She was deaf and blind. But she got something from her hands on the seat in front of her, which was a kinship with the vibration."
Michael Small:
Wow. Now let's hear Martha say those same words.
[Interview resumes]
Martha Graham:
I remember very much Helen Keller and the wonder of her life.
Michael Small:
You met her?
Martha Graham:
Of course. She would come to the studio because she felt she could feel the dance. She didn't feel the dance. She felt the vibration in her feet. And one time she said to me, 'Martha, I don't understand what jumping means.' So I put Merce Cunningham at the bar and he jumped in the first position. She laughed and said, 'Oh, how wonderful. How like the mind.' I'd go to a concert with her, an opera. I had to put her hands on the seat in front of her so she could feel the vibration. She didn't hear the sound or any part of it. She was deaf and blind, but she got something from her hands on the seat in front of her, which was a kinship with the vibration.
Michael Small:
Going back to the subject of the book you're writing about your life, did you go to Mrs. Onassis about the idea for the book, or did she come to you and say, why don't you do a book?
Martha Graham:
Oh, she came to me.
Michael Small:
Do you talk on the phone with her often about the book?
Martha Graham:
Very often. She called me just yesterday, asked me how things were going.
Michael Small:
Is she reading it and giving suggestions and then giving it back to you? Is that how it works?
Martha Graham:
She reads everything and in time, she would give it back to me. She's very forthright and I like that.
Michael Small:
I'm curious if over the years people have written things about you that were wrong and this is a chance to get things right. Is there anything that people wrote about you that was wrong?
Martha Graham:
Not that I'm going to correct. I cannot know what people have written about me. Some people have written terrific things about me. And one critic said that I was the goddess who belched.
[Interview pauses.]
Michael Small:
Here’s another story I want to set up. In 1936, the German government invited Martha to dance at the Berlin Olympics. Of course, she knew that Hitler was already persecuting Jewish people, and keeping them out of the Olympics. So she turned them down. But the Germans wouldn’t believe it. They sent someone to New York to convince her. Here’s what happened…
[Interview resumes.]
Martha Graham:
...And they asked me why and I said, I do not approve of your policy. And I will continue not to believe in your policy.
Michael Small:
The Germans actually came to your apartment?
Martha Graham:
They wrote to me and they sent a woman to see me....
Michael Small:
Wow.
Martha Graham:
And she asked me why I would not. If I told them exactly everything, they would disbelieve it anyway.
Michael Small:
So you just had to say no.
Martha Graham:
You say no.
[Interview pauses.]
Michael Small:
There's another great story coming up that's a little difficult to hear. It's about Martha rejecting segregation on a visit to the South. Before we hear Martha tell the story, Sally, could you read it for us?
Sally Libby:
(reading) "When I was in the South at Spelman College, a student of mine was in the college. And I had lunch with them, with the girls. Then I said, 'I'll see you tonight.' And they said, 'No, we can't go tonight.' Then I realized I was held by that thing. So I spoke to the impresario, who was a local person, and I said, 'I hear you're sold out tonight.' And he said, 'Yes. Isn't it wonderful?' And I said, 'Yes, I hear it's the first time you've ever been sold out.' And he said, 'Yes.' And I said, 'There will be no show tonight unless Spelman College comes in.' I said, 'I don't believe in segregation. I want 20 seats.' Well, I got them."
Michael Small:
I love that. Now let's hear Martha.
[Interview resumes.]
Martha Graham:
When I was in the South, at Spelman College, a student of mine was in the college and I had lunch with them, with the girls. Then I said, 'I'll see you tonight.' And they said, 'No, we can't go tonight.' And I suddenly realized that we were in the hands of a very, what can I say?
Michael Small:
Racist, I guess.
Martha Graham:
In the sense of I was held by that thing. So I spoke to the impresario, who was a local person, and I said, 'I hear you're sold out tonight.' And he said, 'Yes. Isn't it wonderful?' And I said, 'Yes, I hear it's the first time you've ever been sold out.' And he said, 'Yes.' And I said, 'There will be no show tonight unless Spelman College comes in.' I said, 'I don't believe in segregation. I want 20 seats.' Well, I got them."
Michael Small:
A lot of times, especially in the very beginning, people didn't understand what you were doing at all. Reviewers would say, "We don't understand this. What is this? It's ugly." Did that upset you, or did you just ignore them?
Martha Graham:
No, I did not ignore it. I realized I had a reason for it. I realized that I had to do it in spite of that, whether they liked me or did not like me. They consider me as different. I did the thing I wanted to do and the way I wanted to do it to hell with how I wanted.
[Interview pause]
Michael Small:
There's one more story that I loved about a skeptical man in the audience that Martha was able to win over. Sally, could you read this one before Martha tells the story?
Sally Libby:
(reading) "A man in Holland, I remember, came backstage. He was standing in my door and he didn't say anything. And I said, 'Did you want to say something?' He said, 'Yes, I wanted you to know that I didn't like your dancing at all.' And I said, 'That is your privilege. You must like another kind of dance.' And the next night he was back there and I said, 'Oh, my friend, here you are again.' And he named a dance. And I said, 'Well, you don't need to worry about your feeling of the dance. That's the most difficult one we do. And I congratulate you.'"
[Interview resumes]
Martha Graham:
A man in Holland, I remember, came backstage. He was standing in my door and he didn't say anything. And I said, 'Did you want to say something?' He said, 'Yes, I wanted you to know that I didn't like your dancing at all.' And I said, 'That is your privilege. You must like another kind of dance.' And the next night he was back there and I said, 'Oh, my friend, here you are again.' And he named a dance. And I said, 'Well, you don't need to worry about your feeling of the dance. That's the most difficult one we do. And I congratulate you.
Michael Small:
Was there ever a point where you were just so down you thought I'm going to give up?
Martha Graham:
I don't think that because there was nothing else to do. You either did or you died. And I didn't have any intention of dying at that moment.
Michael Small:
You've been working so long at this. Do you ever reach a point where you don't have to worry about money anymore?
Martha Graham:
The reality is I have no money at all. And I'm constantly in need of money.
Michael Small:
Why?
Martha Graham:
Well, for the reason of the company, for the reason I exist the way I do in the company.
Michael Small:
I guess people would think that corporations would just give you huge sums of money and you'd be all set.
Martha Graham:
Oh, oh, oh, oh how wonderful that would be. How wonderful! Because then I could really concentrate on what I'm doing. But as it is, I have to do other things.
Michael Small:
I'm curious to know, are you happy? Are you happy with your life?
Martha Graham:
Yes. I wouldn't have lived the life I have lived unless I was to a certain degree happy in it. I found great happiness in my work and in everything that I did and had great feeling and honor for it and I didn't want to be anything else.
[End of interview]